The early kings...

[Gary Bills]

I wonder if there are any waters whose carp are the ancestors of those stocked by Thomas Ford from the 1890's to the time when, as I understand it, Leney bought him out? I'm using info unearthed by Kevin Clifford for his "History of Carp Fishing." Original Leney carp, by definition, were carp chosen, bred, sold and stocked by Leney - but it seems that Ford was the first to sell King carp extensively...which brings me to another point. As Woldale was stocked in 1925, was that a late "Ford" stocking? ...And there are more questions...the big commons of Cheshunt - exemplified by Mr Andrew's twenty pounder in 1916, were present when the Red Spinners took over the water in 1872. So, what were they? If Mr Ford was the first "King Carp" man, in terms of stocking and selling them, the original Chesthunt fish could not have been King Carp in the modern sense. Therefore, were they indeed wildies, as was claimed until recently? Well, probably not...As Kevin Clifford pointed out recently in Classic Angling, the moment a wild carp is placed in a stew pond, it may be fairly classed as a cultivated carp in the sense that its fate is under man's control...and both the Romans, who may have introduced the carp to Britain, and the medievals, were expert fish breeders, - so it is almost certainly true that even a carp with the classic wildie look will have both a cultivated and a wild ancestry... The Cheshunt fish were deep and broad creatures - but what were their origins? And what were the origins of similar carp caught by Otto Overbeck at Croxby, in the late Victorian and Edwardian periods? They were obviously of a long-established stock. I ask all these questions because, it seems to me that we currently lack both the knowledge and the terminology to define large carp in the UK prior to around 1890. But perhaps, even now, there's an unfished estate lake somewhere with some wondrous and pretty unique commons, just like the Cheshunt and Croxby record breakers.

[The Sweetcorn Kid]

An excellent enquiry and a very valid one at that!!

The Leney stockings (or at least most of them) are well documented and are common knowledge for two reasons, firstly we have the stocking records and, secondly, we have people in our midst that knew Donald and spoke to him about those stockings. Anything before, unless documented, will be vague until some evidence is unearthed, or perhaps it has, but has yet to come to light.

But the questions you ask are questions we all have spinning around in our heads, and that’s the beauty of this subject, there is still so much yet to be discovered and worked out. As we yearn for more information, the pieces of the puzzle are slowly put together, but I personally don’t think we’ll ever finish it………and maybe it will be kind of sad if it does and the research ends.

[Gary Bills]

Yes SK - and I hope for you that the lake you've found contains some brassy-flanked wonders from Victorian days..., or rather the descendants of such carp!

[StalkingLuke]

I think a lot of inner city and large town public parks are often the remnants of old estates and what are now just duck ponds or occasionally boating lakes were once part of the grounds of these large long gone manor houses.
Stocked with fish including carp centuries ago for sport and eating.

Growing up in West London as a kid we would often fish these early in the morning before the park keeper unlocked the gates and regularly caught long lean wildies. I still know of a few parks where they happily live with the ducks.

[Gary Bills]

There's a pond at Newent, which I've walked round but haven't fished; and that was indeed part of a large old estate and is now part of a public park. It has carp, mainly commons and a few mirrors too, surprisingly, but you can only fish it if you are a Newent resident, which I am not, or if you are a member of the club - mainly match fishing and a waiting list. To be honest, the lake doesn't exactly call to me, because the park's a busy place and the pool is usually surrounded by youths and dog walkers. Then there are the restrictions imposed by the club - 6lb line only, no hooks larger that 12s, no floating baits, no cereal baits etc, etc - in fact the only baits you can use are naturals such as maggots and casters and worms - but how you keep a decent lob on a 12 barbless defeats me! I have access to 2/3 waters - farm ponds - with a good head of fish in each but no monsters - high singles and low doubles, mainly - but these are interesting in that they were stocked in the Seventies, with fish from old local estate lakes - so you never quite know what you will catch, in terms of the carp's appearance. Most of the fish look very traditional, which delights me. But all is not quite Arcadia, even here: although the few anglers from "down South" who stumble across these ponds -"hard to find, aren't they?" - usually leave wide-eyed and singing their praises. They tell me about having to book one's peg and stay in it; having idiots cast from the far bank into your peg, and catching rotund carp that look as though they have been puffed up with a bicycle pump. Yes, there's a lot to be said for living in the sticks in Herefordshire, even when you are a non car driver. But all is not ideal; far from it. On Friday, I had my birthday session -starting at "Poplar Pond". I caught five to 9lbs 12oz, on "sight-bobbed" prawn. But every fish I caught had been damaged in some way - split fins, distorted mouths. The pool hosts some matches and perhaps there lies the blame: and although the pool holds some lovely looking fish, which pleases me, on Friday I lacked the stomach to stay and moved on to "Clay Farm Pond", where the fish I landed were far more pleasing in apperarance, although I ruined a new spool of line, because the ten modest-sized commons I caught - to 6lb 10oz -were holed up in "snag alley, an area by the little dam where the bottom is literally littered with fallen branches. I hooked a decent mirror too, which would have been the largest fish of the day. I battled it from behind a screen of rose-bay willow herb, having to hold the rod above the willow herb while keeping the top from the branches above me - but I failed, because the tip hit a branch and the hook pulled. Still, my point is this - the "Clay Farm" session was the more enjoyable because of the condition of the fish. Had I stayed on "Poplar", I would have spent my day discontented. Now I'm busy studying Google Earth and I've found a large pool with an island, miles from any habitation but in "striking distance," and bordered by a large wood. I can reach the pool through the wood...I don't know who owns it, and who to ask - so I'm planning to "guest it at some time, and hope for the best. Is that naughty?
Being caught will be worth it for a common carp of my dreams! The search continues.
Here is one of the better "Clay Farm" fish - caught in a few year's ago, on a blustery March day.

[The Sweetcorn Kid]

Clay Farm sounds nice mate, you need at least one local water like that to stop you goind mad!! And as for guesting, it's only a proble if someone takes offence, ad they have to know your there in order to do that. However, if you plan to do a few sessions, it may be advisable to try to find who owns it, it could turn out you have a wonderful little fishery that you and a few friends have access to, all above board.

I'll be expecting an invitation soon then!!?

[Gary Bills]

I've never guested as an adult, SK - but my plan is to simply fish and be polite when Mr Angry Riparian-Owner comes with his gun and the dogs. I'm too fat and unfit to run in any case. I will apologise and try to be charming if I can...and hope for the best. Herefordshire is such a closed shop, regarding land access, and it's extremely hard to discover who owns what...
It's a big pond I've found, and I found the access point through the wood off Google earth..! A small country lane leads to it. Of course, it might lack carp entirely - but I doubt it; - most local ponds seem to have 'em.
Yes, "Clay Farm Pond" is nice - intimate, overground and just that little bit of mystery at the same time...
If the "new" pool is good - OK, you're on for an invite, and that's a promise!

[The Sweetcorn Kid]

Thanks for the invite, lets hope all goes well.

As for getting caught, I always play dumb. And, as I actually am a little dumb, I carry it off quite well................

[DontKnowMuch]

Thomas Ford's place was where I caught my first carp on cane a few years ago.

Here's an account of the trip with a few photos

The Source of Kings

Over winter I had the opportunity to get stuck into a few books covering much of the history of carp angling and carp waters in England. It must have touched one or more of the nostalgic areas of my brain as I elected to start a sort of “history revisited” tour of a few waters that featured in carp angling history.
Although it would have been nice to start the tour off at some 14th century monk’s pool holding a stock of golden wildies those waters are either long gone or known secretly by only a few. There is a water that advertises pure bred wild carp as its stock and its situation may indeed have helped to keep the carp of the pool isolated from the modern , king strains of carp. I have a contact number but it’s a long way from home and fuel is just far too expensive.. maybe one day?

I decided to start my tour by going back to the early days of the “king” carp in the 19th century.
46 years before Donald Leney brought over the 50 small Galician carp for Redmire a trout farmer on the other side of the country added king carp to his list of available species. As one of the first and certainly the largest supplier of coarse fish within the UK at the time Mr Thomas Ford was responsible for supplying most of the king carp across the length and breadth of England at the end of the 1800s.

Thomas Ford stripping a brood fish of eggs


The ponds from the farm are still there but are now used as a private trout fishery. I visited them in January and was able to walk around the site of the old fish farm. The new owners were very helpful with information and when I mentioned I’d seen some carp feeding in one of the ponds I was offered a re-visit in summer with the chance to cast a line.

Fabulous news, I was to have the chance to catch a carp from one of the places where it all began....The Source of Kings!

Looking down at the lake it was easy to recognise as the same lake from the 1800s





At one time the pool was used by a local school for swimming lessons until sadly one of the children drowned there.



I used the invitation as an opportunity to use one of the MKIVs I bought earlier this year along with a cane landing net made to Dick Walker’s specifications. An old goose quill float fished lift method style was to be the line of attack with bread flake the bait.





After baiting up the edge of some pads with small pieces of bread I made my first cast with a MKIV and I’m pleased to say I didn’t foul things up and the set up landed perfectly just to the right of the pads.
It was a scene worthy of preserving but I had to drop the camera as the float slid away after momentarily lifting and leaning over on the surface. I was into a carp!!

Side strain pulled the fish away from the pads and soon had it into clear water. I figured it wasn’t of any size according to how easily I’d got it under control but still took it easy because I so didn’t want it dropping off whatever its size. Wrong Chris, the fish suddenly sped off to the right and I had the feeling of now being completely out of control, ”Whoah fish, whoa you bugger”.
It was like being a kid again. The fish stopped pulling but the jerking on the line didn’t feel right. I watched a branch rise up out of the water and dance about like the head of a snake before the line fell slack.

I’d lost it!

These were only small carp but this one certainly showed me who’s boss.

A cast to the same spot and a few more small pieces of bread thrown nearby soon resulted in a bend in the cane once again. The fish went ballistic. It showed me itself and even it was small the Mitchell spool was slipping because of my inability to back wind quickly enough..boy this was fun.
A couple of minutes later a bright little thing of about 3lb slid into the landing net and in doing so christened both the net and my split cane carping exploits.



The next two casts resulted in some flying fish.
A couple of aerobatic trout providing a lot of bouncing of the rod tip as they jumped and somersaulted above the water. Excellent sport in an afternoon and an extra bonus to an already marvellous fishing trip.

[Mark]

That's a lovely story and pictures DKM.