Elusive individuals...

[Skeff]

Something that interests me a great deal at the moment.... How and why certain individual fish evade capture for such long periods. A great example this morning from Ashmead with an 18lb+ mirror landed which was last caught in November 2008 at pretty much the same weight. The '08 capture was it's only other time on the bank. Lots of similar examples from Ashmead alone, where carp have been caught just once, despite some very good anglers fishing the water.... How has the fish evaded capture from seven years?

I've always felt these fish are simply feeding on a natural diet but clearly they wanted to eat bait once or twice, so why not at other times? A small aspect of carp fishing's mystery....

Thoughts gentlemen?

[Aquaerial]

This is a quality post Skeff as it will pull out lots of thoughts and views from which we will all benefit in one way or another.
Would it be fair to say that equally there are some fish that come out 2 or 3 times a year which would be my experience up here? Are there addictive qualities to some baits that we have not considered as there are with our own food? I'm thinking additives that make for instance a 'burger fix' part of some peoples regular dietary need? It has been much quoted that as so few businesses control such a large proportion of the food that many of us eat then they use such additives to get us addicted at an early age thus ensuring their own sustainability. Its conceivable then that some carp at Ashmead have that need and others are content with a natural diet.
With Pheasants its very easy to identify those that have been hatched in the wild or with broody hens and those that have had purely a pellet diet. The wild birds will scratch for food and ignore pellet completely unless they learn it later. Could the fish behaviour be something that is learned?
At some point we will have to debate by species as we will be at risk of generalising and putting Carp in the same basket as Pike.

[Shaun Harrison]

Duncan Kay once said to me in the early 80's that the carp population on most waters could be split roughly into thirds. One third will get caught quite regularly, one third will come out occasionally and the final third will hardly ever grace the bank.

This is something that I logged in my head and must admit at the time I thought what a load of - well whatever.

Since then though, this has turned out to be about right on almost everywhere I have fished other than just one place where only a tiny percentage of the fish were caught with any regularity. A stock of around 150 and the same 20 or so fish featured in most anglers albums. That one out of the scale and Duncan in my opinion was about right.

Interestingly it is often the smaller ones that don't come out, similar to the 18 lb fish you mention Skeff and due to the fact that it hasn't grown anything like that of some of the other inhabitants I could only assume that it is predominantly a natural feeder that doesn't convert its food to growth very well and possibly has less dietary requirements than most others and when in the rare instances it feeds upon bait then it is probably pushed out a little thus others making a mistake first.

The other thing is the shape of their mouth's and how they actually feed. Some browse and move along easily enough to be detected once a bait is picked up. Others I have watched (a lot of the Patshull carp were prime examples of this) hardly moved at all whilst feeding, definitely filter feeding rather than browsers. These filter feeders won't slip up very often at all. I have always guessed that these are fish that have never developed in their feeding methods, never moving past or requiring/craving more than they did as young fish.

I find these fish most interesting. I had my own water 'The Inner Sanctum' for 20 years before some kind gang decided to poach it and move the fish. I lost heart in it all after than and let the place go. Now I was sure I knew every fish in there yet the last year I had it I had taken Dave Booth along for a guest session one winter day and he landed a mirror I had never seen before. Now there is zero doubt that the fish he caught was one of the fish that lived had lived there since I had taken the place over as it was very similar looking to a handful of others and so obvious from the same batch of fish.

Sometimes things just never make sense and it is all too easy to think that our methods will catch them all, but in reality they never will or do. A great thought provoking post though

[Dave Burr]

Comparing carp with their river cousins the barbel, there are some fish that seem to learn how to avoid anglers either by detecting their presence, getting to know their habits (such as the busy times), or by watching their brethren and using them as stooges to avoid capture.

Whatever the reason, its wonderful that there are always surprises to be had, treasures to search for and new things to learn along the way. I'd rather fish knowing there are uncaught doubles in the lake than knowing the size of the biggest fish on offer.

[Olly]

The Horton fishery had one like that - a scraper double if I remember - it never grew but was 30+ years sold and asexual.

Perhaps with no spawning effort it did not require a 'food boost'?

[Shaun Harrison]

Longfield where a fair few of the original 'well known' Horton Church Lake fish came from had several small commons swimming around it when it was drained. No-one knew they were there, they had never been caught.

[Catfish.017]

One of my local waters exemplifies a popular theory which holds that koi seem to learn faster than mirrors, commons etc. it's around 2.5 acres with very clear water giving ample opportunity for fish watching. It's a 'free' water and consequently gets a fair bit of attention. This is balanced however by having only four pitches where the 'bivvie brigade' can operate from. Also there are large areas of wide marginal cover- Norfolk reed and mares tail. There is an eclectic mix of stock ranging from a very few true 'wildies' through commons and mirrors to pure koi and all sorts of hybrids. The bigger koi ( mid teens of pounds) are fiendishly difficult whilst being the most often seen of all. Next on the difficult to catch scale is a group of about a dozen koi/linear mirror crosses. Some of these are absolutely stunning looking fish! Then comes a number of smaller koi of various colours from shabby grey to brilliant orange. The 'normal' carp are caught more frequently but paradoxically the absolute 'dunce' of the pool is the largest, a 'Simmo' mirror around 19lbs. It has a ruptured swim bladder so is easily recognisable. Affectionately known as 'Lumpy' it just loves being caught and will barge other fish out of the way to get at a bait

[Julian]

HI find this topic really interesting.
Perhaps the question should be why should we expect every decent size fish to be caught.
I have fished an old overgrown small pool where any sizeable carp had not been seen for twenty years or more, and then after the EA did some serious maintenance work and the after effect of that had settled down , ie a couple of years later, a small number of old carp ( doubles and twenties ) started to be seen and eventually caught - i even caught a 23 lb common myself which was a dark old looking fish but in immaculate condition.
At another60ft deep crystal clear water claypit there were a very small number of carp, hardly anyone fished for them because hardly anyone ever saw them. I use to fish the difficult water for tench and one summer about ten years ago I observed for several minutes at close range a huge plated mirror carp (and I do mean seriously big - seeing it will remain clearly etched in memory forever)
That same summer on other occasions i saw two other very large carp and a large grass carp. Whilst i saw the grass carp on subsequent occasions ( and so did other anglers ) i never saw any of thosr other huge carp again, and they have never been caught, but the big grass carp has been caught on a few occasions.
Finally, the one that must stand out as the obvious one is the Redmire King. At least ten anglers - all very established and most known as great anglers of their time, all reported seeing it and the descriptions all clearly related to the same carp. It was never caught and has never turned up dead ( although a few may know far more about this carp than has been published ) . Pethaps of more interest that it was only ever seen on a small number of occasions over decades on a 2.5 acre pool that is constantly fished. Further to that a carp there , seen in more recent years, known as the long common , described as being vey old looking and almost black in colour is believed by some to possibly be the king , although now much slimmed -down in weight in its final years, and it has never been caught.

[Olly]

It was one of the Longfield Commons Shaun, it went to be tested, at Brampton Labs. I took it alive there myself.

I found it very strange that it was neither male or female!

[Dave Burr]

Its not just carp. I used to fish a pool of about 1.5 acres that, although established, had been open for several years to anglers. Somebody put a fish finder over it one day and found an enormous shoal fish that were presumed to be bream yet none had ever been caught. The next year they started to figure in catches - obviously knowing that their little game of hide and seek was over.