The Traditional Fisherman's Forum

Quite a few were wearing them the last time I walked around Brentwood. Nice traditional attire.

I caught a gorgeous, lean fully-scaled mirror yesterday. I love fully scaled mirrors and don't catch enough. I know there were once a good many in Redmire, and so I wonder - does this attractive scale pattern, perhaps, indicate possible Leney origins, in particular?
After all, you don't see many fully scaled mirrors among another "strains", it seems....

There are a lot of claims to having Leneys (and Leney crosses) from commercials these days, e.g. here http://www.alderfenfisheries.co.uk/#A (you need to scroll down to 'Wyndham Lake') from one that opened in 2007. It would be interesting to know how accurate some of these are.

Depends where they got them from, I suppose; - the last stocking at the pool I'm fishing was around 30 years ago: although the fish do breed there. Most of the carp, - 99 per cent I'd say, are commons, from wildie-looking beauties to rather fat king commons. There were carp in there before then, but I haven't a clue what they were...

Do you have a photo of the fully scaled fish you caught, Gary?

Scaling in carp is controlled by 2 genes called S (for scale) and N (for number). There are 2 versions (called alleles) of each gene: S/s and N/n. Each individual will have 2 of each gene and its scale pattern (phenotype) is determined by the combination (genotype).
This gives rise to the 6 possibilities:
S is 'normal' scaling and s is 'mirror' scaling. N reduces the extent of scaling, n has no effect. NN is fatal.
Thus:
SSnn = common carp
Ssnn = fully scaled mirror
ssnn = mirror carp
SSNn = linear carp (1 row of scales)
SsNn = linear mirror carp (1 row of scales and some other mirror type scales)
ssNn = leather carp

SSNN, SsNN, ssNN - all die on hatching

If there is a mixture of commons and mirrors (and leather) at the start then over time the numbers of mirrors and leather will diminish as they require ss genotype which is fully recessive. This means the stock will become almost entirely commons and fully scaled mirrors but the fully scaled mirrors can look like common carp.

Which reminds me: one should in principle be able to identify 'true' Leney's and 1st generation (at least) Leney crosses through DNA profiling.

Snape wrote:Do you have a photo of the fully scaled fish you caught, Gary?

Scaling in carp is controlled by 2 genes called S (for scale) and N (for number). There are 2 versions (called alleles) of each gene: S/s and N/n. Each individual will have 2 of each gene and its scale pattern (phenotype) is determined by the combination (genotype).
This gives rise to the 6 possibilities:
S is 'normal' scaling and s is 'mirror' scaling. N reduces the extent of scaling, n has no effect. NN is fatal.
Thus:
SSnn = common carp
Ssnn = fully scaled mirror
ssnn = mirror carp
SSNn = linear carp (1 row of scales)
SsNn = linear mirror carp (1 row of scales and some other mirror type scales)
ssNn = leather carp

SSNN, SsNN, ssNN - all die on hatching

If there is a mixture of commons and mirrors (and leather) at the start then over time the numbers of mirrors and leather will diminish as they require ss genotype which is fully recessive. This means the stock will become almost entirely commons and fully scaled mirrors but the fully scaled mirrors can look like common carp.

Yes Nigel - here it is ---

Gary Bills wrote:

Snape wrote:Do you have a photo of the fully scaled fish you caught, Gary?

Scaling in carp is controlled by 2 genes called S (for scale) and N (for number). There are 2 versions (called alleles) of each gene: S/s and N/n. Each individual will have 2 of each gene and its scale pattern (phenotype) is determined by the combination (genotype).
This gives rise to the 6 possibilities:
S is 'normal' scaling and s is 'mirror' scaling. N reduces the extent of scaling, n has no effect. NN is fatal.
Thus:
SSnn = common carp
Ssnn = fully scaled mirror
ssnn = mirror carp
SSNn = linear carp (1 row of scales)
SsNn = linear mirror carp (1 row of scales and some other mirror type scales)
ssNn = leather carp

SSNN, SsNN, ssNN - all die on hatching

If there is a mixture of commons and mirrors (and leather) at the start then over time the numbers of mirrors and leather will diminish as they require ss genotype which is fully recessive. This means the stock will become almost entirely commons and fully scaled mirrors but the fully scaled mirrors can look like common carp.

Yes Nigel - here it is ---

Just another thought, if Snape is correct, and I'm sure he is:

"If there is a mixture of commons and mirrors (and leather) at the start then over time the numbers of mirrors and leather will diminish as they require ss genotype which is fully recessive. This means the stock will become almost entirely commons and fully scaled mirrors but the fully scaled mirrors can look like common carp...."

Then fully scaled mirrors are indicative of an established King carp colony, or may be, regardless of the 'strain'?