Zephyr and Pin Reel handle screw sizes

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Horgaszember
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Zephyr and Pin Reel handle screw sizes

Post by Horgaszember »

Image

I would like to ask your help regarding reel winder spindle screw thread types and sizes. I have a beautiful Milwards Zephyr that was not in use only because its winding handles were completely stuck on their spindles/screws. The end of the screw goes right into the wood and it measures about 3,52mm - 0,138" (outer diameter). What size and type of thread could it be? I had to use the brute force method to take the stuck plastic handle off of the spindles and one of them is damaged, I should repair it with a matcing die. I tried to figure out, it is larger than 1/8" and smaller than 3/16", I have no idea what thread it might be. Also, on the other side of the above picture there is a handle from a real Slater starback reel, I would like to know the thread type on its winding spindle screw as well. It measures 3,1 mm (roughly 1/8") in diameter, but what type of thead is it? BSF or BSW or something else?
Finally, those are not on the picture, but I measured the spindles on a newer Mill Tackle reel and a modern JWYoung pin as well. Those threads both measure 3,41mm - 0,134" in diameter. Same question. What kind of die should I order so that I have the right imperial stuff at hand in case I have to repair or create a new spindle for these reels? I do not even have a metric comb guage set, not to mention any exotic stuff :) I would appreciate if You could give me a hand.

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Wallys-Cast
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Re: Zephyr and Pin Reel handle screw sizes

Post by Wallys-Cast »

The older reels are probably imperial and could be BA or BSF. Without a set of fine thread gauges it's not going to be easy but you could try measuring the threads and comparing the results to a thread chart.
Here is a link to some popular charts, any of which can be downloaded and printed off for future use.
Hope this helps.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=thread+si ... A1&PC=W022

Wal.

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Watermole+
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Re: Zephyr and Pin Reel handle screw sizes

Post by Watermole+ »

It would be helpful to see some pictures of the actual shoulder screws that you have managed to remove, even if they are badly damaged.
If you can send a good close up, it might be possible to work out the pitch..
If they are actually screwed into the wood, they are probably a much coarser pitch, possibly even a wood screw size..?

But from the size that you quote, 4 BA is very close. The major diameter for 4 BA is 0.142” but they are invariably smaller in practice. Remember that the efficiency of any thread is not measured by its tightness, but by the size of its effective diameter, which is a point about halfway down the side of it. Never judge a thread because it is a bit down on size..75% thread depth is still 95% efficient!

However, BA (British Association) threads did not come into use until after about 1903 so if your reel predates that, it would not be BA, which are metric threads, by the way!

If you could send the handle winders to me, a set of screws can be made up to suit.
Send a PM if you get stuck..

wm+

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? Yet one of them shall not fall without your Father knoweth" ..Jesus of Nazareth, King James AV

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JAA
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Re: Zephyr and Pin Reel handle screw sizes

Post by JAA »

Slight hijack, but does anyone know where you can get the actual handles for centrepins? :Hat:
¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸,.·´¯ ><(((º>
Cole aka JAA
https://crucians.org/
https://www.anotherangler.net/

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Horgaszember
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Re: Zephyr and Pin Reel handle screw sizes

Post by Horgaszember »

For the new(er) models you can buy winders / handle sets on the manufacturers homepages easily, like:

JWY: https://www.jwyoungandsons.com/store/Ha ... c132854467
Mill Tackle: https://www.milltackle.com/store
Kingpin: https://www.kingpinreels.com/news/2019/ ... -available
etc...

For older ones you have to find someone who is good on the lathe, I have a friend here in Hungary, and You have Leszek Delag (wm+) or Garry Mills, they are busy, but they can help You...

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Horgaszember
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Re: Zephyr and Pin Reel handle screw sizes

Post by Horgaszember »

Watermole+ wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:56 pm It would be helpful to see some pictures of the actual shoulder screws that you have managed to remove, even if they are badly damaged.
If you can send a good close up, it might be possible to work out the pitch..
If they are actually screwed into the wood, they are probably a much coarser pitch, possibly even a wood screw size..?

But from the size that you quote, 4 BA is very close. The major diameter for 4 BA is 0.142” but they are invariably smaller in practice. Remember that the efficiency of any thread is not measured by its tightness, but by the size of its effective diameter, which is a point about halfway down the side of it. Never judge a thread because it is a bit down on size..75% thread depth is still 95% efficient!

However, BA (British Association) threads did not come into use until after about 1903 so if your reel predates that, it would not be BA, which are metric threads, by the way!

If you could send the handle winders to me, a set of screws can be made up to suit.
Send a PM if you get stuck..
wm+
The actual screws are on the picture above (with my red screwdrivers :) )... The one on the right (brass) is the screw from the Slater, that was not damaged at all, I cleaned and oiled the sets and screwed them back into the wood. The one on the left (alu) is the one from the Millwards reel, that is damaged. I could send You these of course, but I just thought of repairing it myself, thanks for the offer, in any case. I will not bother You with such issues as I have a good friend here in Budapest, whose job is running lathes all day long, so He can make new ones for me if I do not find out what thread this 3,52mm - 0,138" thread is. He has made lots of ferrules, winding checks, and spare spools for me (e.g. for ABU Cardinal 4, Mepps Baby Vamp reels out of aluminium, he has a good anodizing friend as well...). But it should be an easy repair with a thread die. I might try it with a knife :) Oh, this Millwards is after the 1930s, I believe, it runs beautifully. UNC 6-32 or UNF 6-40 is this size, I do not know if these were used in England at that time or not? I will go out and count how dense these threads are...

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Horgaszember
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Re: Zephyr and Pin Reel handle screw sizes

Post by Horgaszember »

Update: I have been reading for hours and hours about threads, then I got angry enough to repair the alu thread with a bad kitchen knife... Hell, it works :) On my research, this thread might have been 4 BA (38.48 TPI) M 3,5 (around 45 TPI) or UNF 6-40 (40 TPI) as it had about 11 turns in 1/4", so about 44 TPI.
Image
Image

So, we can forget about the Milwards that's been repaired and the Slaters, that I would not mess with at all from now on.

However, my third question was on the thread of currently made JWY and Mill Tackle winders, I guess WM+ uses the same on his reels, I measured the outer diameter of some from Young's and Mill's as 3,41mm - 0,134", but I could not find it out from charts what this thread is. What is this thread? Is BA 4 used here? Might be, if I count this note by Leszek: "Remember that the efficiency of any thread is not measured by its tightness, but by the size of its effective diameter, which is a point about halfway down the side of it. Never judge a thread because it is a bit down on size..75% thread depth is still 95% efficient!"
Thanks for all - Balazs

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JAA
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Re: Zephyr and Pin Reel handle screw sizes

Post by JAA »

Horgaszember wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:03 pm For the new(er) models you can buy winders / handle sets on the manufacturers homepages easily, like:

JWY: https://www.jwyoungandsons.com/store/Ha ... c132854467
Mill Tackle: https://www.milltackle.com/store
Kingpin: https://www.kingpinreels.com/news/2019/ ... -available
etc...

For older ones you have to find someone who is good on the lathe, I have a friend here in Hungary, and You have Leszek Delag (wm+) or Garry Mills, they are busy, but they can help You...
The Youngs one look nice :Hat: and the price isn't too bad - but I'm not paying for 'Kingpins' plastic handles!
¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸,.·´¯ ><(((º>
Cole aka JAA
https://crucians.org/
https://www.anotherangler.net/

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Bayleaf
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Re: Zephyr and Pin Reel handle screw sizes

Post by Bayleaf »

Can't say I like the 'pin on acid handles from Kingpin.

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