have you seen this

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Kevin
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Re: have you seen this

Post by Kevin »

One can buy a perfectly serviceable watch for five pounds on the market,or spend considerably more on one.

Stuart Whiting

Re: have you seen this

Post by Stuart Whiting »

Tweed wrote:
STUART WHITING wrote:No fishing rods as such are classified as an investment, collectors items yes I can totally agree with but holding value not particularly,

A collection of various rods that may of been owned by famous anglers and ledgends may hold a few quid but in reality a rod is only ever worth what people are willing to pay,

A few reels over the years have supposedly held a bit of investment, mainly centre pins but this is with exception as most other reels don't generally hold much value,

In terms of angling the only items that I can really say hold any value to them are very good quality first edition angling books :Hat:
Agree with almost all of that. How much value there'll be in twenty years time remains to be seen, but I'd be taking the short view myself. Nobody in twenty years will have a clue about Walker, Allcock let alone Ustonson, in my opinion. It also seems to me that one can acquire a perfectly serviceable cane rod for between £60 (run of the mill fly rods at auction) up to £400 for a new coarse rod.

Anbody's guess what will hold value long term.
You may laugh at this but my best mate has fished all of his life, he doesn't go onto forums etc but does go onto Facebook southeast and Thames fishing as he's predominantly a sea angler and does do a small amount of coarse fishing aswell,

I could mention the name walker as along with many other famous anglers and ledgends and he simply wouldn't have a clue who on erf I'm talking about ( bless him ) ....lols

I also specialise in bass fishing for a number of years aswell here on the Thames estuary which is literally on me door step and I know most of the old school bass ledgends IE Mike ladle, Derek Townsend, John darling to name a few but even with these famous names most of the many sea anglers around me home town of Gravesend, Kent wouldn't even know or even heard of these ledgends :shocked:

Jardine
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Re: have you seen this

Post by Jardine »

Tweed wrote:
STUART WHITING wrote:No fishing rods as such are classified as an investment, collectors items yes I can totally agree with but holding value not particularly,

A collection of various rods that may of been owned by famous anglers and ledgends may hold a few quid but in reality a rod is only ever worth what people are willing to pay,

A few reels over the years have supposedly held a bit of investment, mainly centre pins but this is with exception as most other reels don't generally hold much value,

In terms of angling the only items that I can really say hold any value to them are very good quality first edition angling books :Hat:
Agree with almost all of that. How much value there'll be in twenty years time remains to be seen, but I'd be taking the short view myself. Nobody in twenty years will have a clue about Walker, Allcock let alone Ustonson, in my opinion. It also seems to me that one can acquire a perfectly serviceable cane rod for between £60 (run of the mill fly rods at auction) up to £400 for a new coarse rod.

Anbody's guess what will hold value long term.
Have to disagree about Walker and Allcocks being forgotten about in 20 years, in the case of Walker I think that he will always have a following.
I have never bought fishing tackle as an investment, but rather because I have fallen in love with it and just want to own it and am lucky enough to be able to afford it. Its all lovely nostalgia!
Prices for all books have peaked and are coming down, and I don't think that they are ever going to recover.
But in all areas of collecting the best and rarest examples will always be in demand and will fetch good prices.

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AshbyCut
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Re: have you seen this

Post by AshbyCut »

Tweed wrote:Nobody in twenty years will have a clue about Walker, Allcock let alone Ustonson, in my opinion. It also seems to me that one can acquire a perfectly serviceable cane rod for between £60 (run of the mill fly rods at auction) up to £400 for a new coarse rod.
Not meaning to be contentious (which I normally assiduously avoid) ... but ...

a) I can imagine a couple of chaps sitting around the fire of an inn in 1660, supping an ale or two after reading 'The Compleat Angler' and opining "Walton ? No-one will have heard of him in 20 years time !" How wrong were they ?

I have every confidence that the younger generation coming through such forums as this will secure the future of 'traditional angling, in it's history/techniques/literature/tackle/et al for generations to come. Such writings as those published by our own 'The Sweetcorn Kid' (Stuart Harris) enrich the tradition and secure it's future.

b) In the past I've bought 'perfectly serviceable' cars from a certain internet auction site because they were all I could afford. They got me from A to B, so no complaints.

When I came back from 'the dark side' in angling I started by buying rods from the same site on the same basis ... 'serviceable, cheap, and utilitarian.' As my knowledge and experience grew, and I learned about 'action,' and 'craftsmanship,' and most importantly 'THE FEEL.'

When I think that even a basic craftsman in any profession is impossible to hire at under £25 an hour these days ... and that it can take 50+ hours to make a new rod from scratch (not including materials) ... I'm amazed that new prices are so low given that the makers have to pay tax/business rates/etc !!!

In my view, there will always be a market for quality ... never mind rarity ... and there will always be people who will be prepared to pay for it. I'm extremely fortunate that I've been able to acquire a few rods recently which somewhat exceed the "£400" mentioned above ... I am happy that the pleasure I've gained from becoming their guardian for a while entirely justifies the price I paid ... and that there will be people in the years to come who feel the same way.

I stress ... just my opinion ... and at my age the idea of 'taking the long view' is not really an option :Chuckle: ... but I believe our 'obsession' has a 'long view.'
"Beside the water I discovered (or maybe rediscovered) the quiet. The sort of quiet that allows one to be woven into the tapestry of nature instead of merely standing next to it." Estaban.

Stuart Whiting

Re: have you seen this

Post by Stuart Whiting »

AshbyCut wrote:
Tweed wrote:Nobody in twenty years will have a clue about Walker, Allcock let alone Ustonson, in my opinion. It also seems to me that one can acquire a perfectly serviceable cane rod for between £60 (run of the mill fly rods at auction) up to £400 for a new coarse rod.
Not meaning to be contentious (which I normally assiduously avoid) ... but ...

a) I can imagine a couple of chaps sitting around the fire of an inn in 1660, supping an ale or two after reading 'The Compleat Angler' and opining "Walton ? No-one will have heard of him in 20 years time !" How wrong were they ?

I have every confidence that the younger generation coming through such forums as this will secure the future of 'traditional angling, in it's history/techniques/literature/tackle/et al for generations to come. Such writings as those published by our own 'The Sweetcorn Kid' (Stuart Harris) enrich the tradition and secure it's future.

b) In the past I've bought 'perfectly serviceable' cars from a certain internet auction site because they were all I could afford. They got me from A to B, so no complaints.

When I came back from 'the dark side' in angling I started by buying rods from the same site on the same basis ... 'serviceable, cheap, and utilitarian.' As my knowledge and experience grew, and I learned about 'action,' and 'craftsmanship,' and most importantly 'THE FEEL.'

When I think that even a basic craftsman in any profession is impossible to hire at under £25 an hour these days ... and that it can take 50+ hours to make a new rod from scratch (not including materials) ... I'm amazed that new prices are so low given that the makers have to pay tax/business rates/etc !!!

In my view, there will always be a market for quality ... never mind rarity ... and there will always be people who will be prepared to pay for it. I'm extremely fortunate that I've been able to acquire a few rods recently which somewhat exceed the "£400" mentioned above ... I am happy that the pleasure I've gained from becoming their guardian for a while entirely justifies the price I paid ... and that there will be people in the years to come who feel the same way.

I stress ... just my opinion ... and at my age the idea of 'taking the long view' is not really an option :Chuckle: ... but I believe our 'obsession' has a 'long view.'
Very good and interesting write up, many of the words I can associate with being true especially about vintage tackle and famous ledgends,

In my view vintage tackle will always have a place and a safe hold,

As some would say that it's the experienced anglers choice of tomorrow's tackle :Hat:
Last edited by Stuart Whiting on Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Chris Bettis
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Re: have you seen this

Post by Chris Bettis »

What a fantastic rod and made all the better as it has no intermediate whippings. My wife says she cannot rake up the necessary cash at least not this side of Christmas. She did not saw which Christmas though!

Tweed

Re: have you seen this

Post by Tweed »

AshbyCut wrote:
Tweed wrote:Nobody in twenty years will have a clue about Walker, Allcock let alone Ustonson, in my opinion. It also seems to me that one can acquire a perfectly serviceable cane rod for between £60 (run of the mill fly rods at auction) up to £400 for a new coarse rod.
Not meaning to be contentious (which I normally assiduously avoid) ... but ...

a) I can imagine a couple of chaps sitting around the fire of an inn in 1660, supping an ale or two after reading 'The Compleat Angler' and opining "Walton ? No-one will have heard of him in 20 years time !" How wrong were they ?

I have every confidence that the younger generation coming through such forums as this will secure the future of 'traditional angling, in it's history/techniques/literature/tackle/et al for generations to come. Such writings as those published by our own 'The Sweetcorn Kid' (Stuart Harris) enrich the tradition and secure it's future.

b) In the past I've bought 'perfectly serviceable' cars from a certain internet auction site because they were all I could afford. They got me from A to B, so no complaints.

When I came back from 'the dark side' in angling I started by buying rods from the same site on the same basis ... 'serviceable, cheap, and utilitarian.' As my knowledge and experience grew, and I learned about 'action,' and 'craftsmanship,' and most importantly 'THE FEEL.'

When I think that even a basic craftsman in any profession is impossible to hire at under £25 an hour these days ... and that it can take 50+ hours to make a new rod from scratch (not including materials) ... I'm amazed that new prices are so low given that the makers have to pay tax/business rates/etc !!!

In my view, there will always be a market for quality ... never mind rarity ... and there will always be people who will be prepared to pay for it. I'm extremely fortunate that I've been able to acquire a few rods recently which somewhat exceed the "£400" mentioned above ... I am happy that the pleasure I've gained from becoming their guardian for a while entirely justifies the price I paid ... and that there will be people in the years to come who feel the same way.

I stress ... just my opinion ... and at my age the idea of 'taking the long view' is not really an option :Chuckle: ... but I believe our 'obsession' has a 'long view.'
A very well argued piece, I would just raise a couple of points in response:

1. Walton: This was an early book, and one of a limited range of books from that era. Good publicity and marketing will always prevail to some extent, or in fact to the extent of your ability to convince. This can be either active or passive as in the case of a hare set running - Walton. I think we discussed this book recently. A number of commentators claim to loathe it, and others claim it to be a political pamphlet of subversion and nothing to do with fishing. I'd be surprised if many trouble to read it. Nonetheless it remains an iconic work.

2. Price: As you probably know there is a theory of the market place, and ultimately a price at which a buyer and seller will strike a deal. You correctly point to this being relatively low regarding bamboo rods in the UK generally speaking. A manufacturer might strive to increase prices, but of course there is competition to contend with. One way to get round this is by differentiating one's product in the market. Social and commercial media can assist in this, if harnessed effectively, of course. How long the differential will endure is crystal ball territory.

3. Age demography of readership. I'm not sure what the age demography on this board is, but I'd take a guess thus:
80+ 10%
70 - 80 20%
60 - 70 20%
50 - 60 20%
40 - 50 20%
0 - 40 10%

Stuart Whiting

Re: have you seen this

Post by Stuart Whiting »

Tweed wrote:
AshbyCut wrote:
Tweed wrote:Nobody in twenty years will have a clue about Walker, Allcock let alone Ustonson, in my opinion. It also seems to me that one can acquire a perfectly serviceable cane rod for between £60 (run of the mill fly rods at auction) up to £400 for a new coarse rod.
Not meaning to be contentious (which I normally assiduously avoid) ... but ...

a) I can imagine a couple of chaps sitting around the fire of an inn in 1660, supping an ale or two after reading 'The Compleat Angler' and opining "Walton ? No-one will have heard of him in 20 years time !" How wrong were they ?

I have every confidence that the younger generation coming through such forums as this will secure the future of 'traditional angling, in it's history/techniques/literature/tackle/et al for generations to come. Such writings as those published by our own 'The Sweetcorn Kid' (Stuart Harris) enrich the tradition and secure it's future.

b) In the past I've bought 'perfectly serviceable' cars from a certain internet auction site because they were all I could afford. They got me from A to B, so no complaints.

When I came back from 'the dark side' in angling I started by buying rods from the same site on the same basis ... 'serviceable, cheap, and utilitarian.' As my knowledge and experience grew, and I learned about 'action,' and 'craftsmanship,' and most importantly 'THE FEEL.'

When I think that even a basic craftsman in any profession is impossible to hire at under £25 an hour these days ... and that it can take 50+ hours to make a new rod from scratch (not including materials) ... I'm amazed that new prices are so low given that the makers have to pay tax/business rates/etc !!!

In my view, there will always be a market for quality ... never mind rarity ... and there will always be people who will be prepared to pay for it. I'm extremely fortunate that I've been able to acquire a few rods recently which somewhat exceed the "£400" mentioned above ... I am happy that the pleasure I've gained from becoming their guardian for a while entirely justifies the price I paid ... and that there will be people in the years to come who feel the same way.

I stress ... just my opinion ... and at my age the idea of 'taking the long view' is not really an option :Chuckle: ... but I believe our 'obsession' has a 'long view.'
A very well argued piece, I would just raise a couple of points in response:

1. Walton: This was an early book, and one of a limited range of books from that era. Good publicity and marketing will always prevail to some extent, or in fact to the extent of your ability to convince. This can be either active or passive as in the case of a hare set running - Walton. I think we discussed this book recently. A number of commentators claim to loathe it, and others claim it to be a political pamphlet of subversion and nothing to do with fishing. I'd be surprised if many trouble to read it. Nonetheless it remains an iconic work.

2. Price: As you probably know there is a theory of the market place, and ultimately a price at which a buyer and seller will strike a deal. You correctly point to this being relatively low regarding bamboo rods in the UK generally speaking. A manufacturer might strive to increase prices, but of course there is competition to contend with. One way to get round this is by differentiating one's product in the market. Social and commercial media can assist in this, if harnessed effectively, of course. How long the differential will endure is crystal ball territory.

3. Age demography of readership. I'm not sure what the age demography on this board is, but I'd take a guess thus:
80+ 10%
70 - 80 20%
60 - 70 20%
50 - 60 20%
40 - 50 20%
0 - 40 10%
Now I like this bit of write up aswell Tweed, to me this makes perfect sence aswell,

Mmm....now " Isac Walton " yes I would fairly agree to the extent that he is probably regarded as one of the most recognised famous anglers of all time but the question is would I buy his book :fingertap:

Well to honest with anyone, no me personally would not buy his book, I've picked up copies of his books in the past and to me they realy don't realate to anything, I certainly couldn't see anything that was what I'd call worthy information, a lot of it is just jumbled up poetry which doesn't interest me one little bit :tea:


I like the ideas of calculated percentages as regards to age groups who are on the forum, to be honest I think you'd be pretty much spot on there :Hat:

Paul D

Re: have you seen this

Post by Paul D »

There is a members age poll on here somewhere, as too Isaacs book I've got a copy and I've read it, you really need to remember and take into consideration when it was written, personally I enjoyed it.
As to Mr Barders rod, yes given the funds I'd buy it and use it. :Hat:

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Reedling
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Re: have you seen this

Post by Reedling »

Buying any collectable item for a long term investment is full of dangers and there is no copper bottom guarantee that money will be made, even by the shrewdest of people. Better really to buy and and get value out of use and any future increase in value should be seen as a bonus, even getting your money back is a good result. Short term returns are the best investment with any antique/collectable items, use your knowledge to buy as cheap as you can, paired to your knowledge of what people are prepared to pay.. even then you may have to wait for a return on your investment. You can always try to make some money on investing by adding value by way of buying cheap and restoring but even with this you have to cost in your time, many people try to make a hobby pay wages and fail. If affordability was not a factor I would buy a couple of Barder rods to use, enjoy and appreciate the skill and time gone into their manufacture... but I must admit my pleasure comes from a boot fair find that I can renovate and use, if I damage it, so be it, if I don't may be I then have a investment of pleasure for the future.

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