B.James Production Numbers

[PershoreHarrier]

Apologies if this has already been addressed but whilst there is a list of all the different rods B.James produced I was wondering if the records of the actual production numbers had ever been featured on the Forum. As a business I would expect records of each production run to have been kept and it would be interesting if this information was made available. It might help define the validity of various adjectives attached to rods such as 'rare' as I have never seen the adjective 'prolific' added to a description which in the case of Mk IVs for example surely would apply.

[Santiago]

I have a feeling BJames MKIV rods are quite common, as are the Walker kit rods. Possibly, the cane match rods like the Allcocks Holdwell etc, being less common. I bet most of the forum members have a MKIV in one disguise or another. Whereas the MKIV copies produced by other makers appear much rarer but of equal if not better quality. I suspect that the BJames are over rated compared to other makes which are in all probability much rarer. So what makes a BJames MKIV iconic? Not the quality of the cane or fittings etc., but because Walker and Yates caught big carp using them. Had Walker used another make things would be different! In a nutshell, they're not worth the higher asking prices. Give me a cheaper Walker kit rod version any time.

[Wallys-Cast]

I have a feeling BJames MKIV rods are quite common, as are the Walker kit rods. Possibly, the cane match rods like the Allcocks Holdwell etc, being less common. I bet most of the forum members have a MKIV in one disguise or another. Whereas the MKIV copies produced by other makers appear much rarer but of equal if not better quality. I suspect that the BJames are over rated compared to other makes which are in all probability much rarer. So what makes a BJames MKIV iconic? Not the quality of the cane or fittings etc., but because Walker and Yates caught big carp using them. Had Walker used another make things would be different! In a nutshell, they're not worth the higher asking prices. Give me a cheaper Walker kit rod version any time.

I agree Trevor and when you think about it, Richard Walker himself was using a J B Walker blank when he hooked his record fish.
I have a J B Walker kit rod which is my favourite MKIV carp rod. I have two B James MKIv carp rods which are nice but not as nice in action as the JBWalker version.

Wal.

[PershoreHarrier]

The topic is about production numbers so the question remains - Is there any information regarding B.James production numbers for each of their rods?

I would have thought there would be an annual record of production somewhere of each type of rod.

[Olly]

Their Auditors probably have those financial details!

I don't think there is a record of rods made - not cane ones - when I worked in a tackle shop!

[RBTraditional]

I have a feeling BJames MKIV rods are quite common, as are the Walker kit rods. Possibly, the cane match rods like the Allcocks Holdwell etc, being less common. I bet most of the forum members have a MKIV in one disguise or another. Whereas the MKIV copies produced by other makers appear much rarer but of equal if not better quality. I suspect that the BJames are over rated compared to other makes which are in all probability much rarer. So what makes a BJames MKIV iconic? Not the quality of the cane or fittings etc., but because Walker and Yates caught big carp using them. Had Walker used another make things would be different! In a nutshell, they're not worth the higher asking prices. Give me a cheaper Walker kit rod version any time.

I agree Trevor and when you think about it, Richard Walker himself was using a J B Walker blank when he hooked his record fish.
I have a J B Walker kit rod which is my favourite MKIV carp rod. I have two B James MKIv carp rods which are nice but not as nice in action as the JBWalker version.

Wal.

Couldn’t agree more Wal, JB Walker MK1V and Avon’s are just superb, light and crisp, with plenty of backbone... no wonder Dick Walker used their services....

[Wallys-Cast]

The topic is about production numbers so the question remains - Is there any information regarding B.James production numbers for each of their rods?

I would have thought there would be an annual record of production somewhere of each type of rod.

Sorry Keith, yes the only information I have about production numbers is B James and Son produced around 15000 MKIVs in total. The first batch were sold in October 1952 and the last ones were made in 1966. That's all I can find and this is just from notes written in an old Bruce and Walker catalogue.
I can only assume these figures mean both Carp and Avon versions and possibly includes the stepped up versions too..

It is interesting to see they didn't waste any time in getting them out to the public. Record caught 13th September, MKIV carp rod for sale by October.
Not sure how accurate this is by the way.
Wal.

[John_Moore]

I think the old trad rod manufacturers were all a bit slack when it came to production numbers and rod serial numbers.
Look at the Hardy serial numbers for example I think you would need a degree in mathematical science to understand what went where and when? Somebody somewhere will no doubt understand it!
My simple life prefers guess work, it has been mentioned that B James produced around 15,000 mkIV's does this include mkIV carp and Avon's or just the mkIV carp? Who knows....Anybody.
Seeing as most of the older rod makers have made their journey to that great planing bench in the sky we can only guess.
It's like that old black label Wizard that Allcocks supposedly made... or did they?
I would hazzard a guess that B James & Son made more mkIV's than any of their other rods so 15,000 is a starting point.
I agree Wal there are many other good mkIV's out there aside from B James I have two that I made myself years ago and I compare them with the dozen or so B James rods in my shed and mine are far superior, but I would say that would'n I.
Did I loose the thread or was it someone else?
Best to all and keep your lines tight John.

[PershoreHarrier]

The topic is about production numbers so the question remains - Is there any information regarding B.James production numbers for each of their rods?

I would have thought there would be an annual record of production somewhere of each type of rod.

Sorry Keith, yes the only information I have about production numbers is B James and Son produced around 15000 MKIVs in total. The first batch were sold in October 1952 and the last ones were made in 1966. That's all I can find and this is just from notes written in an old Bruce and Walker catalogue.
I can only assume these figures mean both Carp and Avon versions and possibly includes the stepped up versions too..

It is interesting to see they didn't waste any time in getting them out to the public. Record caught 13th September, MKIV carp rod for sale by October.
Not sure how accurate this is by the way.
Wal.

Thanks Wal that helps and works out at around 1,000 a year and bearing in mind the competition from other manufacturers producing similar products and the relatively high cost of the rods that is quite substantial and more than I would have expected.

It does seem extraordinary that records of production numbers, if kept, have not survived in some form or another.

Broadening the topic out a little are production numbers known for any rods produced by the leading cane rod manufacturers? This topic was not intended to be about this rod was better than that rod or this manufacturer produced a better rod than another but more about the quantity of rods produced and sold. Whilst fishing has been noted as being the largest sport for individual participation the quantity of Mk IVs sold seems high especially when most participants I would guess were buying match rods.

I note the last ones were made in 1966. As a matter of interest I bought my first Mk IV brand new from a tackle shop in 1970 when they were all reduced and in a sale - there were several dozen James cane rods in that sale some 4 years after production had ceased.

[Santiago]

Begs the question how many folk were coarse fishing during that time span. Say 15 years! I don't know the actual figure but to keep the maths simple let's say 5 million (probably a big underestimate). If some one knows the approx figure then lets have it!! Anyways, that works out at 15000 BJames rods owned within a fishing population of 5 million, which is only 0.3% of the market. More realistically over the 15 years of production there were possibly 15 or more million potential buyers, so that's only 0.1% of the market. So actually 15000, when expressed in terms of the market share, is not that many!

And 1, 000 a year works out at 20 a week, or 4 a day (assuming 5day week). That begs the question of how many folk they employed making the rods? And how many blanks they bought in from other sources like JB Walker and Allcocks etc.?

Four rods a day seems not that many! And quite feasible!!! So I suspect that the 15,000 is probably an underestimate.