"Natural fish/cultivated fish" and national records.

[Davyr]

Interesting. The AT article states that "The last living specimen of the distinctive species was captured from Cambridgeshire’s River Cam in 1969", which is what I had previously believed (hence my attempted witticism re the Cam corder).

However, a recent scholarly paper in the Journal of Appled Ichthyology (2011;27[Suppl 1]:1-8) refers to "the last confirmed capture in the Old West River at Aldreth, Cambridgeshire on the 14 September 1969".

And the quoted source for this information? That erudite organ, the Anglers' Mail!

Who to believe??

[Gary Bills]

Thanks for the info Snape - that really is good news.

[Ron Clay]

Agreed SK - I have absolutely no wish, and no chance (!), of breaking a record - and it doesn't bother me one bit: but I still feel that if we are to have records, we need the distinction between natural and cultivated fish...

This has happened in the world of trout fishing.

Earlier this year I spent a few weeks fishing with a friend in South Africa. He has the most wonderful home, a 40 acre strip of land bordering an impounded stretch of the Vaal River about 50 miles south of Johannesburg.

I fished for most of the time for carp using simple tackle; brown bread flake, a waggler float no 6 hook, 10 lb line, a few shots teamed with an 11 foot rod and a top quality Daiwa reel.

I caught over 400 carp in two weeks to just over 16 lbs. The carp were not big, but what they lacked in size they made up for in fighting power. At times the fish ran out an estimated 80 yards of line and they took a lot of stopping as they tried to find refuge in the papyrus and reed mace stems. I was mindful of the words of Dick Walker in the excellent book: "Drop Me a Line". Speaking of the exciting carp fishing he had on Hunstrete Lake (Lackey's Leap), Walker writes: "The fish were all very long and thin and fought like tigers. The 11 1/2 lb fish was 27 1/2 inches long and the 10 1/2 lb one was 27 inches. They should have weighed 15 or 16 lbs in good condition. I say they were thin, but don't imagine they were sick. They were lovely clean looking bright fish and I've never met faster ones, not even at Croxby."

Speaking of a 9 1/2 pounder Walker foul hooked: "He took 115 yards of line (measured) in the first rush.....I have never had a tougher battle with a fish in my life; I had no control of him whatever; he went just where he liked.

My question is, where in the UK do we get carp that fight like this? The carp in Hunstrete lake, may have been wild fish, but somehow I don't think so. What they could have been were probably feral carp, ie - carp bred of the water. Other feral carp waters would have been Wadhurst, Croxby and Cheshunt.

Nearly all the very big carp in England today are stocked fish, having started out life at a fish farm. Even Clarissa was a Dutch fish, having been bred at De Nederlandsche Heidemaatschappij near Arnhem.

But my idea is that we should now have the desire to fish for feral carp, carp naturally bred of the water, just like the South African carp. Carp that can streak off at 40 feet per second as Walker described. Carp so pure that perhaps, just perhaps, we start treating them as a different species with new records, different tackle, and most of all a new appreciation of the wonderful sport that feral carp could perhaps give us.

Do you think that this is a good idea - or not?

[Gary Bills]

I think that is a marvellous idea. Reading "Drop me a Line" and the CCC letters, it seems we have really lost something...Perhaps it is time to look for new/old adventures... By the way, 400 carp in such a short time is a wonderful achievement, in my view. The most I've done in a year was 305, and I thought that was going some...

[Snape]

My question is, where in the UK do we get carp that fight like this? The carp in Hunstrete lake, may have been wild fish, but somehow I don't think so. What they could have been were probably feral carp, ie - carp bred of the water. Other feral carp waters would have been Wadhurst, Croxby and Cheshunt.

Nearly all the very big carp in England today are stocked fish, having started out life at a fish farm. Even Clarissa was a Dutch fish, having been bred at De Nederlandsche Heidemaatschappij near Arnhem.

But my idea is that we should now have the desire to fish for feral carp, carp naturally bred of the water, just like the South African carp. Carp that can streak off at 40 feet per second as Walker described. Carp so pure that perhaps, just perhaps, we start treating them as a different species with new records, different tackle, and most of all a new appreciation of the wonderful sport that feral carp could perhaps give us.

Do you think that this is a good idea - or not?

There are places in England and Wales where such fish exist but they are few and far between.
See Fennel's Priory http://www.fennelspriory.com/wildcarp.htm
I for one would rather catch a lean, mean feral carp than a pot-bellied fish of twice the size.

[Ron Clay]

I did something in South Africa it was not possible to do in England, and that was heavy pre-baiting over a week before I fished there.

My host - Bill, had one of his estate workers bait up a spot for me daily using at least 10 loaves of stale bread and half a sack of maize meal. By the time I got there the swim was heaving with carp. Many of the carp were small ie 3 to 5 lbs. Even so they were no push over and tore off like cheetahs.

My brief was to stock one of Bill's lakes with carp of a decent average size. 100 fish up to 16 lbs will now be swimming in a lake of about 3 acres, ready for me to fish when I am next in SA.

[Snape]

I did something in South Africa it was not possible to do in England, and that was heavy pre-baiting over a week before I fished there.

My host - Bill, had one of his estate workers bait up a spot for me daily using at least 10 loaves of stale bread and half a sack of maize meal. By the time I got there the swim was heaving with carp. Many of the carp were small ie 3 to 5 lbs. Even so they were no push over and tore off like cheetas.

My brief was to stock one of Bill's lakes with carp of a decent average size. 100 fish up to 16 lbs will now be swimming in a lake of about 3 acres, ready for me to fish when I am next in SA.

Sounds like serious fun Ron.

[Ron Clay]

I did something in South Africa it was not possible to do in England, and that was heavy pre-baiting over a week before I fished there.

My host - Bill, had one of his estate workers bait up a spot for me daily using at least 10 loaves of stale bread and half a sack of maize meal. By the time I got there the swim was heaving with carp. Many of the carp were small ie 3 to 5 lbs. Even so they were no push over and tore off like cheetas.

My brief was to stock one of Bill's lakes with carp of a decent average size. 100 fish up to 16 lbs will now be swimming in a lake of about 3 acres, ready for me to fish when I am next in SA.

Sounds like serious fun Ron.

Oh yes it was very serious fun, to the point where you had to pack up mid morning due to wrist strain.

During the past 3 years I have caught South African carp to 22 lbs, all pristine feral fish. The best single catch I ever had was on the Vaal River at Riverton-on-Vaal near Kimberley in 1977 when I took 14 carp, smallest 15 lbs biggest 17 1/2 lbs, all in one day, all on cooked maize kernels, all on a glass Tag Barnes carp rod, and all fully scaled commons. The biggest was 33 inches long and was shaped like a barbel.

The only English carp I ever caught that may have been a feral fish was a long lean Trent carp of 18 lbs, taken whilst barbel fishing some years ago near Collingham. That fish fought incredibly. I have caught English carp from stillwaters up to 28 lbs with pot bellies. All they ever did in terms of fighting was to plod around. Walker tried to give these big obese carp some sort of credit by saying that comparing a big fat carp with a long lean one was like comparing a carthorse with a racehorse.

Personally I thinks it's like comparing a race horse with a fat donkey!

[Snape]

Oh yes it was very serious fun, to the point where you had to pack up mid morning due to wrist strain.

During the past 3 years I have caught South African carp to 22 lbs, all pristine feral fish. The best single catch I ever had was on the Vaal River at Riverton-on-Vaal near Kimberley in 1977 when I took 14 carp, smallest 15 lbs biggest 17 1/2 lbs, all in one day, all on cooked maize kernels, all on a glass Tag Barnes carp rod, and all fully scaled commons. The biggest was 33 inches long and was shaped like a barbel.

The only English carp I ever caught that may have been a feral fish was a long lean Trent carp of 18 lbs, taken whilst barbel fishing some years ago near Collingham. That fish fought incredibly. I have caught English carp from stillwaters up to 28 lbs with pot bellies. All they ever did in terms of fighting was to plod around. Walker tried to give these big obese carp some sort of credit by saying that comparing a big fat carp with a long lean one was like comparing a carthorse with a racehorse.

Personally I thinks it's like comparing a race horse with a fat donkey!

This definitely calls for a forum outing! :D

[Ron Clay]

Well it will cost you £430 for a return ticket plus transport to Loch Vaal, plus accomodation at the Loch Vaal Club.

Let's say about £3,000 for 2 weeks.

All it costs me is £430.00

I get picked up, have an estate cottage to live in, get fed, get all my bait and a servant to do for me.

All for nowt!