Allcocks Aerial Popular 4" Wide Drum

[Wallys-Cast]

I agree with that too John. Most rod or reel makers would have given the buyer some options not listed in the books.
Narrowing a wide drum pre assembly, wouldn't be too much work for a shop which was set up to make reels such as Youngs.

Wal.

[Fredline]

Bear in mind Allcocks were a wholesale only operation. They may have done batches of a requested size but they weren't making individual reels to individual specs.

Allcocks did not make reels. J. W. Young's made them all.

[Jeremy Croxall]

The Aerial Popular was never ventilated. If you find a ventilated version then is has been an after sale addition. They can in 5 sizes 3", 3.5", 4", 4.5" and the very rare 4" narrow drum. These are the 5 reels. The narrow drum is top right and the one with the line guard notch. Incidentally your reel was made by J W Youngs who made all reels for Allcocks.
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What is the width of the narrow drum version John?
I have a 4" Popular wich is ¾" wide, my 3½" Popular is 1" wide. I may be mistaken but I'm sure Gary Mills referred to my 4" x ¾" as a medium drum??

These reels are long gone but not the pictures. My knowledge of Populars is that they all came in one width only with a few non catalogue rogues, ie. the Narrow drum. I have never heard of the medium drum but Garry Mills will know. Looking at the pictures it is not conclusive. It is very obviously narrower than the other 4 but we cannot be definite.

I'm beginning to think my 4" Popular is a "narrow"
version John....
Here's a pic:

It struck me that if the Popular was a budget reel then the model options would have been kept to a minimum, so just wide and narrow.

I wonder if anyone owns or has seen a 4" popular with a drum width narrower than ¾" ?
That would shoot my theory down in flames

[Fredline]

The Aerial Popular was never ventilated. If you find a ventilated version then is has been an after sale addition. They can in 5 sizes 3", 3.5", 4", 4.5" and the very rare 4" narrow drum. These are the 5 reels. The narrow drum is top right and the one with the line guard notch. Incidentally your reel was made by J W Youngs who made all reels for Allcocks.
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What is the width of the narrow drum version John?
I have a 4" Popular wich is ¾" wide, my 3½" Popular is 1" wide. I may be mistaken but I'm sure Gary Mills referred to my 4" x ¾" as a medium drum??

These reels are long gone but not the pictures. My knowledge of Populars is that they all came in one width only with a few non catalogue rogues, ie. the Narrow drum. I have never heard of the medium drum but Garry Mills will know. Looking at the pictures it is not conclusive. It is very obviously narrower than the other 4 but we cannot be definite.

I'm beginning to think my 4" Popular is a "narrow"
version John....
Here's a pic:

It struck me that if the Popular was a budget reel then the model options would have been kept to a minimum, so just wide and narrow.

I wonder if anyone owns or has seen a 4" popular with a drum width narrower than ¾" ?
That would shoot my theory down in flames

Looking at your reel Jeremy, Garry Mills was correct to call it a medium because my 4" narrow drum was definitely narrower. The plot thickens. How about an Ultra Narrow or an XL Popular. You never know they could be out there.

[Lea Dweller]

Having read all of the post's on the subject of the Allcock's Aerial Popular Wide Drum, excuse me for being somewhat confused. Garry Mill's would know as much as anyone still living about the standard construction and/or variations to these reels? Surely it would be better to seek his opinion rather than have members fall out over it. When I read "They is a non-specific plural pronoun which in this instance encompasses Youngs and Allcocks" I realised that the matter has become too technical. It may well be that there were a few 'variants' produced in the Popular range, we know that across the Aerial range there were many that have turned up, some that have even baffled the 'experts' Let us accept that some questions can never have a definitive answer and leave it at that!

[Watermole+]

There's a discussion on the width categories of Aerials (not specifically Populars) on p127 of Turner's Ultimate Collector's Guide.

"The conclusion reached was that there is a variation in Aerial rels which does not conform to any set of simple measurements that would allow one to establish categorisation for Narrow, Standard or Wide-Drum Aerials... The variation in Aerials was due to the fact that they were handmade by individuals using materials that were not uniform, unlike today's methods of production controlled by computers."


Have just been reading this and quite honestly, how this conclusion could have been arrived at is totally beyond my understanding.

A quick glance at any spoked reel immediately shows that there is a very tied up size relationship between the length of the all-important bronze centre hub which revolves on the spindle (centre pin), the spindle itself and the length of the line lays. There has to be-otherwise it simply ain’t going to go together!!!

Given then that there just has to be a correlation between spindle, hub and line lays, all these components HAVE to be made to a set of standard sizes, all of which have a tight tolerance, very easily achieved with the equipment to hand within those factories by the way, thus proving that ALL Aerials were made to specific set widths.
To even think that manufacturers just “made it up as they went along” width-wise, is non-sense and just cannot work. Bronze hubs were machined from castings and made in batches of a set size and the spindles and line lays would have had to have been made to match. One-offs were not made; not within the factory anyway.

A quick glance at any Aerial reel in your hands will demonstrate and prove the point.

It seems though, a great number of Aerial reels were made by whoever made them but to what designated width between the side plates and what constitutes “wide”, “standard” or “narrow” is open to debate and research…

Just my observations..

wm+

[Wallys-Cast]

"The Allcock Aerial" A Collectors Guide. complied by Bob Singleton says of the Popular that they were generally available in wide drum only with the exception of the 4" which was available in a narrow drum version, though this was uncatalogued. Hence it's rarity.

Further on in the book he also states that Allcocks produced many prototype and experimental reels which were never given a model number and were never intended to be sold to the customer. I suspect a few of these experimental reels will have escaped the workshop for use by factory employees and never made it back to the factory.
They also made one-offs to customer specifications so maybe that's why some of these different width drum reels are extremely rare.

Ted asked if it would be worth asking Garry Mills for his opinion and that would certainly be welcome here, however I dont think Garry is old enough to have worked at Youngs when these reels were being made and many of the older factories would have changed production rules and methods during modernisation in the 60s and 70s.
The 1946-71 Aerials (C815 and C340) are in my mind quite a big change from the older versions. I think they are much more of a production line version with very little hand finishing.

Wal.

[Nobby]

I'm sure Wal is right since Gary would have to be 99 years old if he started as a 15 year old apprentice, just to see the last true Aerials go out the door in 1939.

Were there still post war Aerials about in 1971? I thought the factory closed in '69? If not I will have to change my blog.

[Lea Dweller]

I'm sure Wal is right since Gary would have to be 99 years old if he started as a 15 year old apprentice, just to see the last true Aerials go out the door in 1939.

Were there still post war Aerials about in 1971? I thought the factory closed in '69? If not I will have to change my blog.

I would not disagree with what both Wal and yourself have said Nobby. I know that Garry is not old enough to have been around pre and early post war! The reason that I suggested seeking his opinion, is that since he worked for J.W.Young and then started his own business, he would probably have handled a lot more Aerial's of all types than anyone else?

[Nobby]

That's probably true Ted.