At last..the final answer to Conquest dating!

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Nobby
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At last..the final answer to Conquest dating!

Post by Nobby »

Most authorities seem to believe the Conquest with a 'wheel in the hole' drag adjuster was the earlier version and the one with a 'ivorine' scale and lever on the back the later one. I've always thought the opposite as ivorine scales go back to the 1920's before the Conquest was thought of and seemed to me to suggest that a Conquest with one was the first attempt. Besides, they don't actually work well, whereas the 'wheel in the hole, patented by J W Young does work well, so surely it's the later model?

This came up on eBay lately, a brochure for 1955, with an editorial by LR Hardy dated December 1954: ( click image to enlarge)

Image

Paragraph 7 mentions the " easily operated casting brake" and the illustration shows a wheel in the hole.


Some of the text elsewhere does imply that this might be an improved version, suggesting that it's the later model of the two but it's not definitive....the quest goes on! :hairpull:

Incidentally, somewhat surprisingly the brochure also includes the Hardy Eureka reel, complete with telephone latch drum attachment, still for sale in 1955 in parallel with the Conquest.
Last edited by Nobby on Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jardine
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Re: At last..a partial answer to Conquest dating!

Post by Jardine »

Thats very interesting Nobby, I wonder could you give us your version of a chronology for the Conquest models?
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Mem

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Fredline
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Re: At last..a partial answer to Conquest dating!

Post by Fredline »

Well done Nobby, you put up a very coherent argument for the wheel in the hole being the later reel. I was always under the impression that this was not the case.The wheel in the hole reel,surely there is a better name for this? apparently did not sell as well as the "ivorine scale" reel making it a little rarer. I agree with everything you have stated. It just makes perfect sense. Keep up the good work.
Last edited by Fredline on Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nobby
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Re: At last..a partial answer to Conquest dating!

Post by Nobby »

Well I know Wal agrees with us as well 'Fred'.

Mem, I don't really have a chronology, it seems there are just the two versions of the reel. Experts had written that the ivorine scale model was the later version and I just felt that couldn't be right.


That said, this site seems to think the first ones were made in 1955, which if correct, would make the wheel in the hole models the first ones according to the above quoted brochure. I have no idea what the site's source for those dates is though.

http://www.westslopefly.com/reels/hardy2.cfm

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Lea Dweller
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Re: At last..a partial answer to Conquest dating!

Post by Lea Dweller »

I am in agreement with you also Nobby, although when I asked John Drewett for his opinion, he said that the "wheel in the hole" version was the earlier of the two! Not sure where to go with this now, but it would be nice to get definitive proof from somewhere!
Nobby wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:51 pm Well I know Wal agrees with us as well 'Fred'.

Mem, I don't really have a chronology, it seems there are just the two versions of the reel. Experts had written that the ivorine scale model was the later version and I just felt that couldn't be right.


That said, this site seems to think the first ones were made in 1955, which if correct, would make the wheel in the hole models the first ones according to the above quoted brochure. I have no idea what the site's source for those dates is though.

http://www.westslopefly.com/reels/hardy2.cfm

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Wallys-Cast
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Re: At last..a partial answer to Conquest dating!

Post by Wallys-Cast »

Nobby, wasn't there something about the wheel in hole being a patented JW Youngs invention and Hardys got to use it by allowing JW Youngs to use their full bail while still under patent. Or was it because Youngs made reel parts for Hardys, not certain now but I am sure there was something.

Mind you, I also remember reading that Hardys allowed Mitchell to use the full bail while still under patent because of a union between two family members and I cant find any reference to it now so I may have just dreamed it all.

Wal.

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Re: At last..a partial answer to Conquest dating!

Post by Nobby »

It'd be nice to get a definitive answer but so far it's defeated me. There was an on-line Canadian Museum that said the wheel in the hole was the earlier one and I think a lot of folk might be simply quoting that, rather than having any actual proof.

I've found one on-line reference to Hardy's full bail patent being extended by 7 years in gratitude for War work and that would take it to September 1954. I don't have3 a copy, but Rupe Attwood's book ( Ambidexman on the TFF) apparently says that Ted Young thought his two piece full bail, the 'flexible pick-up', or FP would get around the patent. Hardy said it didn't and refused permission for it until their patent expired.

Now J W Young had already breached their other Altex patent on a worm drive for the rotor in their Ambidex and Hardy had allowed that to go through provided the early Ambidex reels displayed the Hardy patent number. They also apparently took out adverts in the angling press reminding anglers that they held the work drive patent.

As stated above, I don't have a copy of Rupe's book, but he has been kind enough to confirm all of the above in e-mail correspondence.

What has been discovered by all this is that a pre-War patent lasted for 15 years....apart, it would seem, for that Hardy full bail patent and also I believe the worm-drive one, which were extended. This seems a little hard on J W Young as they made a huge War effort ( as it was called at the time) too...most notably the Spitfire firing button!

Young's 'wheel in the hole' patent, called a 'compensating drag' by Garry Mills, was granted in 1905, so it would have expired in 1920!

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publica ... cale=en_EP#

It's remarkable that no one ( as far as I am aware) copied it sooner......

Even this 1911 patent adaption would have expired in 1926:

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publica ... cale=en_EP#

As to Hardy reel parts being made by J W Young, Moley has some pals who are ex-J W Young employees and they tease him by telling him little snippets implying whole reels might have actually been made for Hardy.


What we need now is a slightly earlier Hardy Super Bottom Fishing Tackle brochure to see if the Conquest was offered earlier than 1955....and hope there's an image! Unfortunately, they are like Hen's teeth and were only printed every few years so I have no idea what year an earlier one might come from....if it pre-dates Conquest production I'm stymied......... :Brickwall:

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Re: At last..a partial answer to Conquest dating!

Post by Watermole+ »

Thank you for such an interesting post Nobby.

Just out of interest, I have just had a look through some of my old Hardy "Anglers' Guides" and the one bearing the imprint 1954 does not even mention the Conquest reel, whereas the 1966 copy illustrates the version without the "wheel-in-the-hole" and the different lineguard. It also has a different text to the 1955 one you illustrate.

My copy of Hardy's Coarse fishing catalogue for 1962 has an excellent photo of the Conquest with the ivorine dial which costed £4-14s-6d +15/9 purchase tax. Out of interest, the same catalogue depicts the 'Expert' rod for £8-0-0d, the F.W.K.Wallis 'Avon' for £8-0-0d and the 'Perfection Roach' for £13-10s

The 1967 copy contains no reference to the reel at all so I presume that 1966 was the last year of manufacture..?

Regards,

wm+

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Nobby
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Re: At last..a partial answer to Conquest dating!

Post by Nobby »

Well ...that seems to rather seal it I think Wm+.

It looks as though I've been wrong all this time and the experts were right....as they usually are.

The ivorine scale came after the 'wheel in the hole'!


A few sites do indeed say the reel was only made until 1966 which you seem to confirm.

I'm baffled why Hardy dropped a perfectly good system for one that didn't work very well.....

Embarrassing to have been wrong all these years, but it feels good to have the final answer. Thank-you old friend :Hat:


Why didn't I ask you 4 years ago.......? :doh:

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Re: At last..the final answer to Conquest dating!

Post by MGs »

Really interesting. I still love mine, even though it is the later ivorine one. Still works fine for me
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