MKIV S/U

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Julian
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Re: MKIV S/U

Post by Julian »

Snape wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:31 pm Thanks for that Julian
I was shocked by the stiffness of the S/U I bought and it seems pretty similar to the Denis Pye 700 pike rod I have.
I have sent the tip section to Andrew Davis for a once over involving some rings being replaced, a couple of intermediates re-doing and the tip ring being fixed.
Andrew is excellent so why not PM him about fixing your butt ring?
Thanks Nigel
I would be interested to know what you assess your S/U s test curve to be, it sounds to be similar to mine from what you are saying.
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Snape
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Re: MKIV S/U

Post by Snape »

Julian wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:11 pm
Snape wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:31 pm Thanks for that Julian
I was shocked by the stiffness of the S/U I bought and it seems pretty similar to the Denis Pye 700 pike rod I have.
I have sent the tip section to Andrew Davis for a once over involving some rings being replaced, a couple of intermediates re-doing and the tip ring being fixed.
Andrew is excellent so why not PM him about fixing your butt ring?
Thanks Nigel
I would be interested to know what you assess your S/U s test curve to be, it sounds to be similar to mine from what you are saying.
It must be 3lb at least.
“Fishing is much more than fish. It is the great occasion when we may return to the fine simplicity of our forefathers,” Herbert Hoover.
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Julian
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Re: MKIV S/U

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Paul D wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:32 pm Very interesting Julian, I still think about the trio of as new rods you acquired, once in a lifetimes opportunity, why not have a go at re-whipping that ring yourself? If not ask Dr Cane (wallys cast) , I can never get my head around the forces and mechanics involved when a large fish is hooked, fancy the butt ring letting go, the last thing I would have expected to happen.
Thanks Paul
Re-whipping may not be a difficult task for some, but I would definitely be hopeless at it, some people are good at fiddly practical things, I am definitely not. I will eventually ask Wallys Cast to do the job, but I am actually curious to know just how long the glue can hold it in place, bearing in mind that one end of the ring 'holder' is tucked under the whippings so it has some support, whereas on the other end it is just glued on top of the broken thread.
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Julian
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Re: MKIV S/U

Post by Julian »

Snape wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:16 pm
Julian wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:11 pm
Snape wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:31 pm Thanks for that Julian
I was shocked by the stiffness of the S/U I bought and it seems pretty similar to the Denis Pye 700 pike rod I have.
I have sent the tip section to Andrew Davis for a once over involving some rings being replaced, a couple of intermediates re-doing and the tip ring being fixed.
Andrew is excellent so why not PM him about fixing your butt ring?
Thanks Nigel
I would be interested to know what you assess your S/U s test curve to be, it sounds to be similar to mine from what you are saying.
It must be 3lb at least.
That should be enough to subdue some nice large carp.
There is no peace on earth like the peace of fishing in the early mornings

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Beresford
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Re: MKIV S/U

Post by Beresford »

Test curves are obtuse things and hard to measure. One of my new built MkIVs has a test curve of both 1.5lbs and 2lbs. How come? Well it's very hard to tell when the rod has really entered the 90 angle. I tried, with assistance, to do so. It hit the 1.5lbs mark easily but when I put a real fighting curve into the rod it pretty much remained at the same 90 degrees but with a digitally measured 2lb pull.

I know you folks are more skilled anglers than I am but I'm very nervous about using over stiff rods for carp fishing as I have genuine concerns about hook pulls and mouth damage. The notion of using a rod with a 3 or even 4lb test curve does make me wince somewhat. Is such a brutally stiff rod really necessary? (Runs and hides!)

I have an 11' foot cane carp rod which is a 2lb rated modern Chapman blank. Due to the extra length, over a MkIV, I can get a lot more control over the fish and it's powerful enough to turn hard fighting quick fish in the 14 – 18lb bracket from snags. Due to the length it doesn't feel over stiff just, I suppose powerful but compliant.
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Bob Brookes
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Re: MKIV S/U

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Many years ago I bought a S/U for I think £150, which completed my rather extensive collection of B James rods. Even then they were not too common, probably because they were not a popular rod when they were new. My rod had been owned by Reg Cooke the well known illustrator responsible for the terrific drawings in No Need To Lie. It was well marked Reg Cooke Melbourne, his home town in Derbyshire.

Having spend a fair while sourcing an almost mint example, together with provenance of being owned by a well know angling illustrator, I rather disliked the rod. It was just too stiff for any fishing that I was ever likely to do and so didn't have a place in my rod rack. I remember likening it to something that Fatima Whitbread may have thrown at the Olympics.

That sale must go down with one of my many mistakes, if only for financial reasons. Snape, I hope you get on with yours and use it to catch a monster.
"You do not cease to fish because you get old, you get old because you cease to fish"

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Julian
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Re: MKIV S/U

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Beresford wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:43 am Test curves are obtuse things and hard to measure. One of my new built MkIVs has a test curve of both 1.5lbs and 2lbs. How come? Well it's very hard to tell when the rod has really entered the 90 angle. I tried, with assistance, to do so. It hit the 1.5lbs mark easily but when I put a real fighting curve into the rod it pretty much remained at the same 90 degrees but with a digitally measured 2lb pull.

I know you folks are more skilled anglers than I am but I'm very nervous about using over stiff rods for carp fishing as I have genuine concerns about hook pulls and mouth damage. The notion of using a rod with a 3 or even 4lb test curve does make me wince somewhat. Is such a brutally stiff rod really necessary? (Runs and hides!)

I have an 11' foot cane carp rod which is a 2lb rated modern Chapman blank. Due to the extra length, over a MkIV, I can get a lot more control over the fish and it's powerful enough to turn hard fighting quick fish in the 14 – 18lb bracket from snags. Due to the length it doesn't feel over stiff just, I suppose powerful but compliant.
Up until a couple of years ago the only way I could stop surface hooked large carp at very close range in weedy old pools getting in to snags was to use a carbon rod ( with test curves of 2.25/ 2.5 /2.75). At that time the most powerful cane rod I had was a MKIV Carp ( Sharpes Scottie 1.5TC) and it was not powerful enough to land fish in these circumstances. Surface fishing at very close range you only have literally a few seconds to gain control. When the fish are only inches from snags you have to stop them, hold them and turn them in a couple of seconds.
Fishing in those specific circumstances I also use 16lb line. I tried for a long time with 12.5lb line but kept losing the larger carp - it was not strong enough to hold them when there is a such a force generated at close range. Therefore with 16lb line a rod with 3lb TC is a good match ( most info on test curves suggests that the range of line strength to use should be between 4x and 8x the TC - ie 3lb TC means lines of 12lb to 24lb are best).

However since then I have used the S/U MKIV - probably close to 3lb TC, and a an old Hardy rod that also probably has a test curve of about 3lbs.
Using those I have succeeded in losing far fewer fish and therefore landing a lot more carp that are upper doubles to low 20's.

I fish a number of waters where the same carp obviously get caught repeatedly and yet the only carp I see with mouth damage are known old carp in one pool where they already suffered damaged mouths a long time ago.
I look carefully at each carp I catch and their mouths are not damaged after being caught in those circumstances. I believe tethered carp, using barbless hooks, and novice anglers are the three main causes of mouth damage to large ( over 10lbs) carp.
Last edited by Julian on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Julian
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Re: MKIV S/U

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Bob Brookes wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:56 pm Many years ago I bought a S/U for I think £150, which completed my rather extensive collection of B James rods. Even then they were not too common, probably because they were not a popular rod when they were new. My rod had been owned by Reg Cooke the well known illustrator responsible for the terrific drawings in No Need To Lie. It was well marked Reg Cooke Melbourne, his home town in Derbyshire.

Having spend a fair while sourcing an almost mint example, together with provenance of being owned by a well know angling illustrator, I rather disliked the rod. It was just too stiff for any fishing that I was ever likely to do and so didn't have a place in my rod rack. I remember likening it to something that Fatima Whitbread may have thrown at the Olympics.

That sale must go down with one of my many mistakes, if only for financial reasons. Snape, I hope you get on with yours and use it to catch a monster.
I think there are obvious reasons why there were not many B.James S/U MKIVs sold, but why there are still plenty in use.
When the S/U rods were first made ( 1956 maybe?) up until when B.James ceased making them ( early or mid 1960's) quite a few anglers probably bought them who already had the Avon and Carp B.James rods , regardless of whether they would get much use or not.
However the main reason it was never going to be a big seller at that time was that there were so few anglers who had access to waters that contained large carp (eg 20lb plus) mainly because there were actually so few large carp in total.
So not a big seller, but for those that were purchased often they had little or no use, and therefore likely that at a high proportion of S/U rods bought in the 50's and early 60's still exist today.
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Re: MKIV S/U

Post by Beresford »

Julian,

Thanks for your explanation. I found that using a longer rod helped in similar circumstances as you get put pressure more over the head of the fish. I found that I can and have literally turned a 15b carp over backwards with my 2lbs test curve rod. At the time I thought crikey this rod is just too strong so I don't use it until the end of the season when the lilies have grown tough.

There is a fabulous water close to my home which has opened up recently although a mature lake. I really wanted to fish there but the owners specify lines of 14lbs minimum which rather rules out using MkIVs. When fishing 16lb line with floaters I presume you are always fishing in and around snags and not open water?
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Bob Brookes
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Re: MKIV S/U

Post by Bob Brookes »

Julian wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:50 pm
Bob Brookes wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:56 pm Many years ago I bought a S/U for I think £150, which completed my rather extensive collection of B James rods. Even then they were not too common, probably because they were not a popular rod when they were new. My rod had been owned by Reg Cooke the well known illustrator responsible for the terrific drawings in No Need To Lie. It was well marked Reg Cooke Melbourne, his home town in Derbyshire.

Having spend a fair while sourcing an almost mint example, together with provenance of being owned by a well know angling illustrator, I rather disliked the rod. It was just too stiff for any fishing that I was ever likely to do and so didn't have a place in my rod rack. I remember likening it to something that Fatima Whitbread may have thrown at the Olympics.

That sale must go down with one of my many mistakes, if only for financial reasons. Snape, I hope you get on with yours and use it to catch a monster.
I think there are obvious reasons why there were not many B.James S/U MKIVs sold, but why there are still plenty in use.
When the S/U rods were first made ( 1956 maybe?) up until when B.James ceased making them ( early or mid 1960's) quite a few anglers probably bought them who already had the Avon and Carp B.James rods , regardless of whether they would get much use or not.
However the main reason it was never going to be a big seller at that time was that there were so few anglers who had access to waters that contained large carp (eg 20lb plus) mainly because there were actually so few large carp in total.
So not a big seller, but for those that were purchased often they had little or no use, and therefore likely that at a high proportion of S/U rods bought in the 50's and early 60's still exist today.
Julian,
I was probably wrongly under the impression that they were made for pike fishing. They would certainly be able to chuck a whole herring and well capable of coping with the largest pike, which were far more common than carp back in the day.
"You do not cease to fish because you get old, you get old because you cease to fish"

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